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STREETS, BUILDINGS & GROUNDS COMMITTEE
APRIL 28, 2008
Municipal Council of the City of Vermilion
Municipal Complex, 685 Decatur Street, Vermilion, Ohio 44089
In Attendance:
S. Holovacs, F. Ostrander, B. Brady, H. Strickler, M. Rossini, J. Gabriel, D. Roth, Gwen Fisher, Mayor Anderson, D. Squires, C. Howard, W. Hamilton.
Call to Order: Dan Roth, Chairman, RESOLVED THAT this Streets, Buildings & Grounds Committee consisting of J. Gabriel and M. Rossini, Members does now come to order.
TOPIC ONE: Perry Street Proposed Closure/Quad Gates
Mayor Anderson provided council with a recap on the proposed safety corridor project. She was aware that council had concerns about costs so she included it in the information as provided.
D. Roth noted that this issue has to go through the Planning Commission. Mayor Anderson said it is her understanding that this does not have to go through Planning. She noted that she reviewed the zoning code which specifically states that city projects do not go through Planning.
F. Ostrander asked if the $1 million grant would be enough for the city to make a quiet zone between Main, Grand, and Perry, and not close any streets. Mayor Anderson said she did provide this information to council. She said there is nothing in her information that addresses just doing those three streets. She said doing these three streets will not give the city a quiet zone. It has been indicated from rough estimates that a $1 million will not give the city anything more than quad gates for two crossings. Then the loop detection systems have to be included. She said they really can’t institute a quiet zone by just closing the two crossings. She didn’t believe the $1 million would cover the third crossing according to preliminary estimates. She went through the information on the sheet to clear up some gray areas.
M. Rossini asked what the definition was that defines whether or not it is a quiet zone. Mayor Anderson said it would have to meet the criteria necessary to establish a quiet zone which is set forth in the Ohio Revised Code. In order to establish a quiet zone they have to meet their criteria and would have to include loop detectors in each of those crossing areas that signal to the conductor that they are coming through. She said they would have to link those three gates with the loop detector system and that is where they run into a lot of costs in addition to the quad gates. In order to meet the requirements for a quiet zone all of this would have to be in place in order for the federal rail commission and state rail commission to certify that they wouldn’t have to blow the whistles.
J. Gabriel said he read the Charter because he was of the understanding that this would have to go to the Planning Commission. The Charter says that the Planning Commission is in charge of not only buildings and structures located on public streets, but the streets themselves in regards to vacations, widening, just about anything with streets. He said they are indeed under the duties in the Charter responsible for. Mayor Anderson said that in conversation with Bob Kurtz this is not a vacated street and there was nothing that they found that required this to go to Planning. She said in Chapter 1262.01 it states the compliance required for the Planning and Zoning Code. J. Gabriel said as long as the building inspector is confident then he is okay with it but he was under the impression that anytime they close a street it would have to go before Planning.
H. Strickler asked in the past when they closed the other crossings if it had gone to Planning Commission. Mayor Anderson said she wasn’t aware of this but it’s not vacating a street nor was it doing anything that stipulated it would have to go to Planning Commission.
Skip Griffith of Timberview Drive said that J. Gabriel is absolutely correct because Article VI, Section 6 of the Charter deals with mandatory referral to the Planning Commission. He said he doesn’t care what they do with a street it must go to the Planning Commission. He noted that the building inspector is not the final law on what happens on this Charter. Mayor Anderson said they can take this to the law director but in the zoning code, Chapter 1262.01 states that the City shall be exempted from limitations or restrictions imposed by this Zoning Code on the use of any land or structure. Essential services, electrical substations, gas regulator stations, telephone exchange buildings, public utility buildings, municipal buildings and equipment and accessories in connection therewith, reasonably necessary for the furnishing of adequate service by a public utility or Municipal department or commission for the public health, safety or general welfare, shall be permitted as authorized or regulated by law and other ordinances of the City in any use district, it being the intention hereof to except such erection, construction, alteration and maintenance from the application of this Zoning Code.
Skip Griffith stated that this section of the code has to deal with the zoning code as it deals with districts. For example, in a residential district you can’t put in a fire hall, a church, or a school. He said if the law director reads this Charter and it doesn’t take precedence then he will buy the mayor the best hat she has ever owned. Mayor Anderson said they would look into this. D. Roth said he still would prefer council to elect this to go through Planning because he would like their input regardless of whether it’s mandatory or not.
Mayor Anderson reviewed the information she presented to council as follows:
*The City of Vermilion has received a grant in the amount of $1 million from Congresswoman Kaptur for set-aside to be administered by the ORDC for the purpose of a rail improvement project in the City of Vermilion.
*That ORDC can become involved in this project only by closing a street crossing (the recommendation is to close Perry Street).
*Vermilion City Council must approve of the street crossing per ordinance. The ordinance has language that states the crossing will be closed NOT until a Subsidy Agreement is negotiated and executed and all improvements outlined in the agreement are completed. This means that if the project does not go forward to completion the crossing will not be closed.
*Costs to the City for the Safety Corridor Project: 1) we have 1 million dollars from the set-aside 2) with the closing of a grade crossing we have assistance from ORDC—they will contribute additional funds, they will manage the project, they will obtain additional funds from Norfolk Southern; 3) engineering for the project will be done and we will all know that total cost of the project and we will be able to evaluate it at that time; 4) should the City of Vermilion decide NOT to go forward with the project at that time we will have 1 million dollars to use for a limited rail project that will be managed by the City; 5) the engineering costs incurred will be covered in the following way; if the engineering done is used as a part of the project the City does the city will be able to use money from the 1 million dollar set-aside to pay for that portion of the engineering, however, if engineering has been done on something left out of the project the City does then the City will have to come up with the money to pay for those engineering fees, the City will NOT be able to use money from the 1 million dollar set-aside just for the portion of the project we did not do; 6) If the City closes a street crossing, ORDC manages the project and obtains additional funds to cover the remainder of the project. 7) The City costs will be future costs to perpetuate and maintain all advance warning signs (estimated annual cost between $2,000.00 and $6,000.00 per crossing. Total cost at this time has a wide range of $8,000.00 to $24,000.00). The City is responsible for pavement markings on the approaches to the crossings (this is something the City is currently responsible for included in our street striping/painting) and that cost is minimal.
*The following organizations are supporting the establishment of a quiet zone: The Vermilion Chamber of Commerce, City of Vermilion Main Street, The Vermilion Port Authority, and St. Mary’s School.
*North Central EMS, Vermilion Police Department, and The Vermilion Fire Department have stated that the closing of Perry Street will not adversely affect their response times.
*Rail traffic will increase significantly in the future.
*Having heard from our City insurance, we know that we will not incur higher insurance costs if quad gates are installed.
*Ohio Revised Code prohibits ORDC from getting involved without the closing of a street crossing.
****Cost****
Close Perry=safety corridor project+quiet zone. City cost=$8,000.00-$24,000.00 annually for future continued maintenance.
Do NOT close Perry=$1 million set-aside to use for rail improvement project+NO quiet zone and minimal future cost for maintenance.
B. Brady asked if the annual cost to the city is an annual maintenance cost billed to the city or an actual cost of repair. Mayor Anderson stated that she didn’t have a specific answer to this and thought it may vary year to year ranging from $2,000 to $6,000. She said the city will know more about this once it’s engineered but right now the maximum cost to the city will be $24,000 annually, and the maintenance is for the loop detectors systems that would be at each of the quad gates.
B. Brady asked if the city has any contracts with the railroad currently. Mayor Anderson said there were no contracts at this point in time. She said there is nothing that holds the city to this forever. So, say five years down the road costs are escalating and the city doesn’t feel they want to maintain those loop detectors. She would think they could shut the loop detectors down and have quad gates for railroad crossings and then they can go back to no quiet zone.
D. Roth noted that the mayor had said that ORDC will obtain additional funds from Norfolk Southern and knew that there was no guarantee, but wondered if the gravel drive on railroad property that connects Perry and Washington could be improved so they could at least loop between Perry and Washington, and basically not have a dead-end and people turning around in driveways. Mayor Anderson said they do have a commitment from Norfolk & Southern. Originally it was 25 percent if the city closes a crossing. She said this is part of the negotiation that will happen between ORDC and Norfolk & Southern. She said that ORDC feels confident that the city will be receiving a minimum of $200,000 from Norfolk & Southern and ORDC would then pay the rest to complete the project, and they are estimating it will be close to a $2 million project. D. Roth clarified that if the city doesn’t get the money from Norfolk & Southern then the city still isn’t on the hook for anything and ORDC will take care of the cost. Mayor Anderson believed this to be the case and if it’s not the city doesn’t have to go forward with the project. D. Roth said the city doesn’t want to be stuck with the engineering either.
H. Strickler addressed the ordinance which states that Vermilion City Council must approve of the street crossing. She said she has concerns in the ordinance where once council passes this ordinance all future decisions are the mayor’s and it doesn’t come back to council. She said council will then not have a say anymore on this issue which concerns her. She wants to make sure that council has a say every step of the way because of the costs. She would like to see this changed in the ordinance to say that it has to come back before council. She said they were supposed to have their answers to a lot of their questions on costs because they really haven’t heard those. She said that the Port Authority and St. Mary’s is behind this and questioned when a horn has to start blowing its horn as it approaches a crossing. She didn’t think this would help the river or St. Mary’s depending on when they blow their horn. C. Kubik said they have to start blowing the whistles within 1500 feet. An audience member noted that the trains start blowing their whistles at West River Road by the Water Tower.
Mayor Anderson said they are including Vermilion Road in the project. H. Strickler thought last week it was stated that Vermilion Road was not a part of this. G. Fisher thought it was noted at last week’s meeting that Vermilion Road was a misquote on the part of ORDC. Further clarification on this issue was requested. D. Squires believed that in the event that Perry Street was not closed then the additional funding would not be there so they would have to decide on which crossing not to have quad gates on and it was suggested possibly not Vermilion Road.
S. Holovacs understood that the mayor received word that with the closure of Perry the city wouldn’t acquire higher bills, but wondered if the liability or responsibility would fall back on the city if someone was to die on the tracks. He asked the mayor to get this issue verified.
D. Roth asked the mayor to clarify through the law department whether this issue needs to go to Planning and to clarify through the ORDC if the Vermilion Road crossing in fact is included.
Mayor Anderson said it is included and the four crossings are of the planning for the city’s quiet zone. If the city gets into the plans and the costs are through the moon, then they would have to look at it. However, they are looking to get quad gates at the four crossings by closing one of the streets.
Skip Griffith asked the engineer if he had a ballpark figure on the engineering of this project. C. Howard stated that the railroad will do the engineering and he wouldn’t be involved in this. Skip understood this but just wondered if he had a ballpark figure. C. Howard said usually they shoot for 10 percent. S. Griffith said the representative from the ORDC mentioned a cost for engineering between $6,000 to $8,000 per crossing so taking the high number this could be $32,000. He said if the engineering costs run high and the city fails to move forward then the city is looking at a $200,000 bill.
M. Rossini asked F. Ostrander if council ever got a response back from Mr. Harris of the railroad. G. Fisher noted that she never heard back from Bill Harris. M. Rossini asked if the only way to correspond with the railroad is through the ORDC. Mayor Anderson said they are the liaison and project manager, and they are the state’s rail commission.
H. Strickler said if the city does everything they’re supposed to do by closing Perry and putting in all the quad gates and then apply with the federal government to become a quiet zone, they can still say no to the city. She said the city still hasn’t got this answer and wondered what the chance is to become designated as a quiet zone. She said they were told last week that Norfolk Southern isn’t really supportive of quiet zones yet. Mayor Anderson believed the city would have done everything to comply with what they require for a quiet zone so the ORDC would have a hard time understanding that they would not accept this corridor as a quiet zone if the city has done every thing they need to do to comply. She said there are no guarantees but believed Tod Darfuss of the ORDC felt the odds were very high that the city would qualify.
Coletta Kubik of Jefferson Street stated that the FRA took many years to come up with a formula for quiet zones, so when ORDC brings one along they either need to close a street, use quad gates, do a one-way, or do channelization. She said that channelization won’t work in Vermilion and the one-way isn’t possible with ORDC involved. She said they are trying to do a crossing closure so they can gain funding from ORDC. The FRA has come up with the ultimate safety measure which is the quad gates. She said there is no reason to refuse once you have done what they have told you to do. She also noted that Vermilion would be the first quiet zone in Ohio.
Jim Huffman resident at the corner of Huron and Perry Street believed most of the town is in favor of a quiet zone. Their question however is how to obtain it. He said it seems that whoever proposed the closing of Perry Street didn’t understand circulation through the town. He said that Perry is the main corridor for access to the South Street school; not only for the walkers from north of the tracks, but the buses also. He said the police always use it and the fireman can always use it if they were to close Grand Street. He felt that Grand Street is too close to Main Street to maintain it open if they’re going to close a street. He said if the trains are blocked at Main Street they’re probably going to block Grand Street as well. They may also block Perry but at least Perry is further away and maybe still open by splitting the train. He said they use Perry Street before and after every parade. He said it is important that they maintain another exit besides Main Street to get from South Street north. He said that Perry Street was originally considered as a school access street because it goes all the way from South Street all the way to Lake Erie. It’s the only one besides Main Street that does that. He said he had requested a four-way stop sign change at Perry and Ohio so it would be safer for the walkers. He noted that Coletta had made a view of how many people and cars were going across the tracks. He said they need to realize now that they have a lot of empty houses and old people living in houses with no children north of the tracks. He said he can’t guarantee this to be true five years from now. He said they could have 1,000 kids north of the tracks trying to find some way to get to South Street and Decatur Street schools and probably crossing the railroad tracks whether there are gates or not. He didn’t believe many of the kids would walk to Grand Street down to South Street and then back to South Street School willingly. He wanted council to understand the importance of keeping Perry Street open. He said they also discussed the fact that Grand Street is an alternate for Route 60. He thought this could be changed easily by requesting ODOT to change this. He also suggested that council investigate whether they can do these crossings wireless rather than running conduit and wire between the different computer stations they will be using at each crossing.
D. Roth said he had thought too it would be better to close Grand Street rather than Perry for a lot of the reasons mentioned. After this time, he received phone calls from Larry Dickerhoff and MV Circuit Design on Grand Street, as well as a letter from Vermilion Hardware. He said he hadn’t thought about the delivery trucks that are necessary for those businesses and that would have a hard time if they were to close Grand Street to serving those businesses. He said at the time he was looking at the comments from the Vermilion Schools and the amount of buses that use Perry as opposed to Grand, and the safety issues with the sidewalks.
D. Roth reported that council received a letter from Read Wakefield of Huron Street who strongly urged them to keep Perry Street open in the interest of safety for school children. Council also received a letter from Main Street Vermilion in support of a quiet zone for the betterment of Vermilion.
Mayor Anderson said as far as Perry Street being the main corridor to the schools this has been an issue and what was studied previous to this moment in time and why they originally recommended that they close Perry is because at the end of Perry on South Street it does take you right up to the schools. This street is lined with cars with parents picking up their children and dropping them off at the start and the close of the school day which makes it very difficult for emergency vehicles to maneuver around this area at that time coming off of Perry Street. It would be preferable for them to use Grand Street because of the congestion. Also, in speaking to the amount of buses using Perry Street over Grand, they can see that their line of vision is obstructed on Perry and not Grand, which had to do with one of the reasons they prefer using Grand over Perry. She stated that Grand Street is an alternate Route 60 and it is for the reasons of the construction of the road and the width, which they don’t have the benefit up on Perry.
Jim Huffman said as far as the fire forces they would be using Ohio Street to get to Perry because the station is on Ohio Street. He said they want a direct route for the schools and this is exactly the reason they want it there and not some place else. Otherwise, they create a traffic problem of getting to the schools to drop the kids off. He said that anyone that drives on Grand Street knows it is narrower than Perry and it’s also rougher and in need of repair. He said the crossing at Perry is clear on both sides and Grand has trees and buildings on both sides, so Perry is better for site view. As far as the trucks are concerned he is sure any of the semi’s can get to these stores without any problems. He thought there was a way to provide them with a turnaround.
Larry Dickerhoff stated that he doesn’t want to see either street closed because the city gave up enough already. He said he wants the quiet zone. He told council they were in a tough situation and he wouldn’t want to be sitting where they are at right now because they’ll make somebody mad. He said if they are worried about safety then go under the undercuts. He said a school bus crossing tracks can get hit but if they go under the undercut they can’t get hit. He said the main thing they should try to do is try to keep both crossings open. He said it’s almost impossible. He didn’t’ think there was anybody that didn’t want the quiet zone. He explained that he doesn’t want to see Grand Street closed because of the trucks and the traffic. He said the problem with vision is because of the additional parking space on Liberty. Once this parking space is gone they won’t have any troubles. He said he is all for the parking spaces and likes them on both sides of the streets. He said council has to figure out some way to keep both Perry and Grand Streets open. He said he is uncomfortable with not knowing the exact figures. He didn’t think there was a businessman around who would go into something like this and not know the figures. He said council needs concrete figures. He asked what the $2,000 to $6,000 covers and felt that council needs to know this information to make an intelligent decision, and they need to know some concrete figures on those costs. He said he wants to see the project to go forward.
S. Holovacs thought the administration needs to look at the parking space on the south side of Liberty near Grand Street because it does block the line of vision if you’re turning west off of Grand. He asked the engineer and service director to look into this.
J. Gabriel said if council can get the Ohio Rail Commission to give them something in writing that they will pick up all the costs except for the maintenance costs then that is huge. He said they have heard a lot of numbers kicked around and one of the biggest apprehensive points for council is that the city doesn’t have any money. They don’t have spare money and are scraping already. He said if the ORDC can put in writing that the city’s contribution beyond the million dollars is the maximum of $24,000 a year for maintenance costs then this would be a different consideration all together because he believes they are wrestling with the same question. This is the ultimate no-win scenario. If they close Perry the parents north of the tracks are upset; if they close Grand the businesses are upset; if they don’t do the quiet zone then everybody else is upset; if they don’t include Vermilion Road, then the river and the Vermilion Lagoons are upset; if they don’t include Adams Street they’re upset. For the city to get this done they will need something in writing and the ORC will have to provide that before he is comfortable with this.
Coletta Kubik noted that the fire chief had stated that the hump in the Perry crossing is very rough on the trucks so they choose this as their last route.
M. Rossini stated that the trains are just as loud without the whistles and they need to tighten up the road beds. Mayor Anderson agreed that the trains are noisy and stated that the railroads are working on installing a seamless track which will eliminate a lot of the noise from the actual train. She wanted everyone to know that she doesn’t have a dog in this hunt at all. She knows that there are a lot of people in the city who have worked for many years on getting a quiet established for the City of Vermilion and she was involved with their efforts prior to becoming mayor. Since becoming mayor she has tried to work on their interests and has communicated with Marcy Kaptur’s office, and has tried to see that their interests were in front of her. She said Marcy Kaptur has kept her promise to the “Concerned Citizens of Vermilion” and has delivered a $1 million to the City of Vermilion. She has gone ahead of them and has worked with ORDC to make sure that the City could have a quiet zone established even though the million dollars wasn’t going to be sufficient. She said that Marcy received a guarantee from ORDC and through Norfolk Southern that they would come up with the additional amount of money that it would take to install the quad gates and create a quiet zone for the city. She said they are looking at the potential for about $2 million being spent in the city so that they can create a quiet zone and insure businesses they are giving the best possible support they can. She could not imagine with 50 more trains a day that they will be easily attracting businesses to the downtown or the marinas, or the homes along the corridor. She said she can’t imagine that the downtown will be vital and the property values along the tracks are going to maintain any value should this happen. She said she is looking at the potential of somewhat of a ghost town in the downtown and not many of those homes being purchased quickly by people wanting to locate near the tracks. She said this is a tough decision and no one wants to close a street crossing but this is required through the Ohio Revised Codes. She said if the city does they will get assistance to complete the project. She said it’s in council hands to make a decision on this and what they think is in the best interest of the city both today and five years down the road.
She thought they should look at the safety by putting up signage or putting up fences, or block crossing areas to insure safety. They can work with education and will try to block the crossings to keep the area safe. She said that the City of Vermilion is very unique along this corridor with the numbers of crossings that they have in the residential areas. She said that most cities don’t have this number of crossings in such a short area and this is partly why Marcy Kaptur wanted to help the city out with this money.
She said the set aside that Marcy directed to ORDC is not going to be available to the city indefinitely. They know that there are a lot of other communities that would like to have this money for the establishment of a quiet zone. She thinks when somebody steps up and wants to give a city a million dollars for quiet zone they do so because they care about the residents, but also know the city is going to have increased train traffic. She said they will want to support this increased train traffic because it’s a part of the industrial development. She said as far as going back to Marcy Kaptur’s office asking for help in any other of the city’s projects if the city gives this money back, then she’s not sure if the city would be fast in wanting to step up to do that. She said she is not trying to persuade council but feels it is good for the residents and the future, and it’s certainly a gift to the City of Vermilion.
N. Luby stated that when they were starting to split Conrail up there were a lot of meetings for the mitigation of this and at that time they said the train traffic in Vermilion would double, and the trains would get longer. He said at all the meetings they had the feeling that anything the city said nothing mattered and everything was set in stone. He told council that he preferred that nothing gets closed because they already closed two. He said back then it did have to go Planning Commission in October of 1994 and they made the recommendation to close Perry instead of Washington at that time. He thinks the federal government is spending big bucks to do this and he thinks if they just lower the decibel readings on the horns they would be better off, and it would be much cheaper. He said they are spending millions of dollars and they’re just locking their kids and grandkids into debt.
D. Roth asked the administration to get council some answers on whether this has to go before Planning Commission as well as an answer to the liability question, and if it’s a sure thing that Vermilion Road is included, and what the maintenance figure covers.
F. Ostrander asked if they still had to base whatever they do on a range of $200,000 to $600,000 per crossing or before they vote on this will it get narrowed down. Mayor Anderson believed it will not get narrowed down more than this prior to committing to closing a crossing. F. Ostrander said if they only did the three crossings and didn’t have to use the entire $1 million they could still have a decent quiet zone. He felt that the city was being forced to close Perry Street but they don’t even have a dollar value to say why they have to do this. Mayor Anderson said the dollar value is the quiet zone. A million dollars will not give the city a quiet zone. F. Ostrander said he doesn’t know this because they still haven’t proven that the city needs more than the one million dollars to have a quiet zone. Mayor Anderson said they gave the city estimated costs. F. Ostrander said it was $200,000 to $600,000. Mayor Anderson said this is just the maintenance of the loop detection system after they’re once installed. F. Ostrander said that is the $2,000 to $6,000 and he is talking the $200,000 to $600,000 per crossing for the gates. Mayor Anderson said the ORDC did give the city the costs last time they were here per crossing. She thought Vermilion Road was estimated at $640,000; $340,000 for Main Street, $320,000 for Grand, $300,000 for Perry, and $600,000 for Adams to install quad gates at each of these locations. F. Ostrander thought that maybe the city could get three gates for under $1 million but they never broke it out that way. Mayor Anderson said the gates would be installed for these prices, but it doesn’t include the loop detector systems.
H. Strickler clarified that the prices council was given last week doesn’t include the $200,000 to $600,000 that they said they would kick in to connect them all. Mayor Anderson said it doesn’t include this but they are estimating that they will kick in $800,000. H. Strickler said as a council they are being asked to close something but they’re not going to tell them the actual figures until the city agrees to close a crossing, but council is hesitant to close something because they really don’t know the price, and she doesn’t see how they can break the circle. Mayor Anderson said they are not looking at this project of $2 million plus. They are looking at a total of $2 million and this is where ORDC will be negotiating with Norfolk Southern also. They then would take care of the loop detection system that will be installed.
D. Roth said before ORDC does their negotiating with Norfolk and Southern he would like council to put together some ideas of something they would like them to go after as well, possibly the way the crossings are blocked off or a connector road.
Mayor Anderson said the Ohio Revised Code says they are not allowed to do anything further until the city agrees to close a crossing.
J. Gabriel said he would like council to get something in writing that the city’s costs will be strictly the $2,000 to $6,0000 per crossing maintenance fee. M. Rossini thought the ORDC said they couldn’t give the city any actual figures until the city commits to at least $50,000 in engineering. Mayor Anderson said the only requirement the city has at this point in time is to commit to closing a street. If they don’t move forward with closing a street the city gets the million dollars if they put it toward the quad gates which would probably give them two.
B. Brady asked the mayor if the city has a deadline from ORDC. Mayor Anderson said the city doesn’t have a deadline but it has been suggested to the city that the set asides are being questioned. She said if the city has a project going the set aside is secure, but if the city doesn’t have a project going then the set aside may not be secured. The set aside is the $1 million.
D. Roth MOVED; M. Rossini seconded to forward the review of the ordinance to close Perry Street to the Planning Commission for their recommendation. Vote 3 YEAS. MOTION CARRIED.
Coletta Kubik said on the thought of doing just those three crossings, a quiet zone has to be a half mile or better.
TOPIC TWO: Commuter Rail
Mayor Anderson shared with council some of the work that is being done on behalf of commuter rail in northern Ohio. She said there is support for West Shore Commuter Rail. It’s been talked about for years and the support has grown substantially. The West Shore corridor is from Vermilion to Cleveland. There have been meetings over the past several years and more and more people are interested in seeing commuter rail between Cleveland and Vermilion. There has been an organization established (North Ohio Commuter Rail Coalition) to begin fund raising to pay for a business plan. The business plan will actually let everyone know the schedules, the costs, and the amounts of service to get a commuter train on the tracks. The commuter rail has the support of Governor Strickland’s office. They have offered to contribute a $160,000 to the business plan and they are charged with as a coalition to raise $40,000 as their co-pay in the cost of this business plan. All of the cities (businesses, individuals, and corporations) along the corridor are being asked to help contribute toward this $40,000 cost.
She said that commuter rail will be a good addition to the Ohio Hub Plan which is high speed passenger rail from Cincinnati to Columbus to Cleveland and this also has great support in the Governor’s office. They are looking more and more at alternative transportation because the cost of gasoline is increasing every day.
She reported that there will be a meeting at Chez Francois Restaurant on May 22. She said that private residents, businesses, and corporations who want to see this commuter rail will be invited to this fund raising event.
She said at a future Streets, Buildings, & Grounds meeting she would like to invite representatives to give council a presentation on commuter rail and the routes they would take, and how it would connect with the airport.
M. Rossini said he would like somebody to do some more thinking with the idea that if the rail comes they tear down the metal building by the railroad station. He believes it is called the “Historical School.” B. Brady said the school is the brick building. M. Rossini said he is talking about the ugly metal thing that is holding it up.
TOPIC THREE: Review of Amended Ordinance 2008-31 (Watercraft Safety Operators)
G. Fisher said the ordinance has been amended to address Chapter 240.10 and 240.11 that establishes the positions for City Watercraft Operator and for the Civilian Operation, and the salaries are established which may be amended annually. F. Ostrander said they also added to the ordinance that the salaries are generated by the grant. G. Fisher said it actually reads that the salaries are appropriated in the watercraft safety fund. F. Ostrander said this ordinance can be amended under “New Business” at the next council meeting.
TOPIC FOUR: Proposed Road Levy Program
J. Gabriel reviewed some ideas with council he had in regards to starting discussion on a road program. He said he reviewed some various options that had been tried in the past as far as generating income and the type of taxes they could ask for. He suggested a quarter percent increase in income tax for all residents working both in town and out of town. He thought one of the benefits is that the elderly on a fixed income wouldn’t be burdened by a property tax. He said the people earning would be the main contributors. He also included the idea of a Road Committee made up of five (5) voting members made up of residents (one from each ward), and three non-voting members, the Service Director, the City Engineer, and a representative of council. He said this would allow a group of people to concentrate strictly on one aspect which is roads. He listed various types of replacement methods that were discussed in the past. The only change is that they should both say with or without curb and gutter. He also proposed not more than two streets can be replaced in any ward without at least one street being replaced in each subsequent ward. Council may deem a particular ward has not streets that qualify for replacement. He said he would also like to see the money used for strictly street replacement and not maintenance.
M. Rossini told J. Gabriel that he put a lot of thought and consideration into this program but questioned where the equalization is. For example, if one of H. Strickler’s streets in her ward is $500,000 and he wanted Cooper Foster redone and it cost only $100,000 then is he being too narrow-minded or are they feeling that Ward five has less people and shouldn’t be represented, or are they being considered the black sheep. J. Gabriel said the committee would have a representative from ward five and would assume that this person would pick two streets from that ward. He said it also depends on need.
B. Brady took exception to the last two things because in order to get all of them to support this they should guarantee part of the money. She said they need to find a way to divide the money up so each ward knows that every year they will get some piece. The other problem she is having is that J. Gabriel specified three methods. She took a number from the blogs that John LeMarche figured and the city would be generating a little over $500,000 a year. She said to do a mile road with the pulva mix from numbers in 2006 it’s going to be over $500,000. Personally in ward four she has some concrete streets in Edison Street that don’t need to be replaced but they do need some major work or they are going to lose them. She said if they give her $100,000 she’s not going to replace a street but will cut out the sections of Edison Estates to save those streets so that it won’t cost them $500,000 in two or three years to replace them. She took exception to the replacement of bad streets. She thinks they have streets out there that they can save as well as save money down the road. She said this would be her first goal in her ward and each of them will have their own priorities. She said she would like to see some money guaranteed to each of their wards so they can guarantee their residents some work.
F. Ostrander told J. Gabriel that he liked his proposal and it was a good effort. He made a suggestion that instead of numbering streets he would replace it with a dollar value. Another thing they should consider is an encumbrance. He said that maybe they should take out a five-year loan and do a bunch of streets so the plan is set for five years. He said they could say that up to 80 percent could be encumbered on five or ten years. He said they should be specific on the loan term that it could not exceed the life of the road.
S. Holovacs thanked J. Gabriel for coming forward with his proposal because he is getting a lot of calls from residents in ward three who are asking to get their streets fixed. He told them that the city doesn’t have any money and that they will need to start looking in other areas if it means a levy to possibly get it done. He thought if the clerk could pull information from two years ago it would help the process along. He said council needs to come together to present this plan to the residents and if they can show they can work together then maybe this could go through.
D. Roth said the last time they put this to the voters they came pretty close so it’s definitely worth trying again because there is no other way they’re going to get the roads fixed. J. Gabriel said that nothing is set in stone and this is just the kindling to the fire, and he wanted to get people thinking and put in some thought about fairness and equity. D. Roth said that council can look at what has been done in the past and then they can keep referring this issue back to committee until they can get a plan tweaked out. H. Strickler asked the clerk to also get information on Amherst’s road program because they have a very affective one. She said if they could structure a road committee and take it out of council then it may be the most affective. This issue was referred to the May Legislative committee agenda for more discussion.
Jennifer Graham of Hollyview Drive stated that she is concerned about all the roads in Vermilion, especially hers because she drives it every day. She said repairing the roads is a major thing because it’s the quality of livability and sustainability, and they have to have this because they are a tourist town. She said that people don’t just drive up and down Liberty. She said she isn’t going to remember the good time at the Festivals but will remember her head bobbing up and down when she is trying to get a good deal at a garage sale. She said she did some research because she has got mad at the quality of her road and she came upon something other cities are doing which is the pavement condition index that helps take out the politics. She said that city engineers rank the streets in order and she doesn’t feel they need to do the streets by either one per ward or two per ward, but done in order of which ones need repaired the most. She said her part of Hollyview is an emergency street and the fire trucks go up and down it. She said she wouldn’t want to be in the back of an ambulance while they were trying to work on her going to the hospital with the way the streets are. She said if a system was in place where a city engineer could rank the streets in order of repair it would take out the politics. She said they have to weave down Hollyview to avoid the holes. She said they have to take care of the streets in order to take care of the city. She said she would help do research or footwork but felt the politics had to be taken out of this.
D. Roth noted that the city does have a street index ranking from 2007. H. Strickler said that she had made a commitment this spring and summer to ride her bike or jog down every road in Vermilion and she went down Hollyview which is by far the worst street. She thinks as a council it is time they look at the city as whole and rank the streets. She said she would be for Hollyview getting paved if it was ranked worst or Cooper Foster because they have to start somewhere and it has to be the worst roads that are done. She said that Cooper Foster is just as bad as Edson and Ohio Street. M. Rossini said the worst street he has seen is the one that goes to the high school because this is a main street that a lot of people from town go to.
J. Gabriel said in the proposal it calls for the street index list to be worked by the board. He said he was hoping they could come to a place where each of these streets that are rated a five could be done in each ward.
B. Brady said if they did all the bad streets they have talked about it would cost around $9.6 million. She said if they do all the horrible streets they also need to do maintenance on the ones that are decent because the city can’t afford to let them to get into the condition that they have let some of them get into. She said it’s a lot cheaper to do maintenance because they can’t afford to lose the streets that are salvageable.
Linda Fitrose of Hollyview Drive stated that the street department patched holes on Hollyview Drive. She has a 60 ft. frontage and there were 26 holes that they patched. She said this is a long-term problem and it does need permanent solutions and not patching every year. She said last year they used the new patching material which has washed out and is now sitting in the curbs of Hollyview Drive which is horrible looking. She showed council pictures of the condition of Hollyview. She said the street is embarrassing especially when people come from out of town. She noted that the residents on Hollyview Drive take pride in their homes and the landscaping is lovely but the street is just so ugly. She said even 10 years ago they brought back a marble top dresser from Florida which was 1,300 miles and when they got to Hollyview Drive they heard the marble fall. She asked when they could expect to get the gravel cleaned off of their street. She said something needs to be done to make the appearance better for them. She said her husband would even sweep in front of their house if the city could send someone out to pick up the gravel.
D. Squires said something they need to do as a council is take a field trip and look at the concrete streets and look at the work that has been done with the dura patcher and what is actually happening to the street. He said they also need to look at the loose stone that they’re all hearing about to see if it really is from the dura patcher. He said granted there is some there but he has walked a lot of streets and the dura patcher work they did for the majority of the time held. He said all the dura patcher work did not stay but they have a much more serious problem with the concrete streets deteriorating around the patch. If the concrete is deteriorating around the patch or if they have a crack in the joint coming into that patch then water and ice will get under it and lift it.
He said as a prelude to Mr. Gabriel’s road levy proposal, council may consider implementing a road maintenance fee which can be billed as a separate fee on the utility bill. He picked a number of $10 per month which would generate approximately $50,000 per month. He pointed out that Mr. Gabriel had proposed that the money be placed into its own account with legal restrictions and that the money is used only for road replacement and not maintenance. D. Squires felt that preventative maintenance was very important and they need to both address streets that are deteriorating completely that will need to be completely restored; however, they still need to maintain what good streets the city does have. He said these maintenance fee dollars can be used to maintain certain streets. There can be large sections of concrete streets replaced as well as asphalt streets. If a road levy is successfully placed on the November ballot and should it pass, the road maintenance fee can be discontinued once the quarter percent income tax is collected. He said this would serve as a springboard so they can really hit the road running and try to start working on the roads now.
S. Holovacs didn’t care if they used hot patch or cold patch on Hollyview because there is no street there. He said in front of Officer Davis’ house is a disgrace and these residents live in the same vicinity. He said with the patching that was done on Hollyview and Mapleview he agrees that with no drainage the patch will not stay. He said that on some of these streets there are pieces of concrete but he felt that between 85 to 90 percent of the gravel on their streets is from the dura patcher because he does walk up and down Hollyview and Mapleview. It’s the small gravel that they see from the dura patcher.
F. Ostrander suggested using Pride Day to pick up the stone if residents were willing to sweep up the stone in front of their house. He said in addition to the city picking up limbs he would like to see the city pick up the gravel if residents would call in to say where to pick it up from. D. Squires felt this was a good idea.
J. Gabriel said he is reluctant about poisoning the well by taking money before they start asking for money. He thought this would put this program into a tail spin before it ever got off the ground. He thought they were better off by coming up with a plan and give it to the voters to ask for their contribution. As far as maintenance versus repaving as they replace roads the patching would start to dramatically decrease and they would then have extra money in the street maintenance and repair fund for these products. In his view he thinks they should set this up in a way that this is really for fixing the worst of the worst and then they will still have the Street M&R portion of the budget for the other aspects.
Skip Griffith of Timberview Drive told D. Squires that his attachment to the dura patcher has clouded his vision. He said there was a gentleman that complained last week about Northview Court and D. Squires said it wasn’t gravel from the dura patcher but it was from the deterioration of the concrete. He begged to differ with D. Squires because he drives those streets every day because he lives there and there is gravel from the dura patcher and it’s not the streets. He said that D. Squires said he has walked them but if he has walked them, then he has to have his eyes closed. He said there is enough stone to pave a street somewhere else. He said that somebody has to face up to the fact that the dura patcher is not worth using it on concrete streets. He explained that not too long ago he had an ambulance called to his house and was in severe pain. He said if he had gone into full cardiac arrest the crew on the ambulance could not have worked on him because they couldn’t stand up. He said the pain was tripled by the trip over that road. He told B. Brady that as far as VOL in her ward she should stop to think how many times those streets down there have been paved, and why – because they’re block grant money (low income). The people in the rest of town are sitting with their streets going to pot and not a dime being spent on them because they’re not low income. B. Brady said she has been there for 10 years and they haven’t paved a street. S. Griffith said, “Isn’t that a shame; I’ve been here for 40.” He said they have been paved and repaved and Adams Street has been paved and that area is probably the less traveled places in town but they got good streets because they’re low income. He said they now want to maintain streets they have fixed. That could go on forever and the rest of the town will never get fixed. That philosophy will get them nowhere. He said for the taxes they pay in this city to have the streets they have, is a total disgrace. He said the $10 fee on the bills is a backdoor tax and the citizens voted it down the last time the city tried to do it. He thought J. Gabriel had a good idea to go back to the voters to convince them that they have a program in the works, and told them to rid of the “My ward attitude.” He said they need to do the worst streets first no matter where they are at.
D. Squires explained that he did not say that all the stones on the streets were from broken up concrete. He agreed that some were from the dura patcher. It’s not all from the dura patcher and it’s not all from the concrete streets. It’s a combination of both so he doesn’t have a clouded vision. He said he is speaking with contractors on making repairs for the concrete streets. He told Mr. Griffith that he isn't proposing a backdoor tax by any means. He brought it up as a possibility and suggestion that they can use these dollars up until the point where a levy does pass.
H. Strickler thought this discussion was good because they all know they have to do something. She said the city has had five levies go down and she has always been a proponent of repealing the forgiveness tax but that was shot down the voters. She said if they would do something that would make people so ticked off, they would never vote for a levy. She thought they should start asking for a levy and let the voters decide on what they’re willing to pay for. She said there are so many residents coming forward from different areas that she would think they would have a grassroots movement to get the levy passed. She said council and the administration can be unified to put it together but it has to be driven by the citizens of Vermilion to get it to pass.
Mayor Anderson responded to Skip Griffith as far as the CDBG money being spent on paving some of the streets. She said this is based on need because she has spent a considerable amount of time surveying some of those streets herself to try to qualify for the CDBG dollars. She said to Skip, “What would you suggest that we don’t go for the CDBG grant money?” She said they can only use this money for what is stipulates they can use it on. Skip Griffith stated that if he gave the impression that he was against block grants that is wrong and this was not his argument. He said he just meant that they should get rid of this ward concept because there are areas that have been getting money. He said the rest of the areas are supplemented by the people’s tax money. He said he is against somebody sitting at the council table saying now that we have another program going we want our share, but maybe that ward has already had its share.
Linda Fitrose of Hollyview agreed with H. Strickler that this town has a hard time getting levies passed. She wondered if an assessment project could be done to get the streets paved and charge the homeowners on their property taxes. She said their home values are going to go down and then who would want to buy a house on Hollyview Drive. She asked if any study has been done on what the cost would be per homeowner. S. Holovacs noted that an assessment could cost as much as $2,000 to $3,000 per homeowner. He said by taking a quarter percent you may be only spending $100 a year. He thinks this whole process should be an education to the residents.
Lisa Walker of Hollyview Drive said she would be willing to vote for this levy if it would save her money. She said she has a bill from her car damage in the amount of $562.00 that she had to pay from hitting a pothole on her street. She said if it is less money for her to pay for a levy to pass then she would be willing to do this. She said that all of them would be willing to educate everyone in the neighborhood or town if they knew who was going to get taxed. She said it’s sad when the country roads are better than the Vermilion roads.
M. Rossini said he was sorry if he gave the impression that he was a money grabber. He didn’t mean that he had to have his share when he was ragging on J. Gabriel. He said he likes this council and feels they need to work well together. He thought in working well not only do they share the unpleasantness but they also share some pleasantry. He said he doesn’t have to pay either but would be more than happy to contribute to maintain their town.
D. Roth referred this issue to the legislative meeting in May. He asked the mayor and Dan Squires to look at possibly picking up the stone during Pride Day.
TOPIC SIX: Review of Ordinance 2008-36 (Emergency Fund)
F. Ostrander asked the service director what this $5,000 is for. D. Squires said hopefully it will never have to be used but he would like some emergency funds as a safety net in case of overruns for unforeseen vehicle repairs, etc. F. Ostrander asked if the street sweeper has been repaired. D. Squires said the city is getting it back tomorrow.
J. Gabriel asked if the vehicle repair funds are exhausted and the administration has a repair would this go above and beyond what they are looking at. He clarified if this line item would only be used if the line item for equipment/maintenance was exhausted. D. Squires said correct. J. Gabriel said he doesn’t have a problem with this as long as council is kept abreast of any transaction that this account would be used for and if any time council feels it is not being used correctly they can always remove it or alter it. D. Squires said in his past practice with council he always brings everything he is doing to council first.
F. Ostrander asked if fund 210 for this emergency fund is a new account. W. Hamilton stated that this is a new fund number and it is free standing. He said it will become like a revolving fund. He said for instance if $2,000 has to go to the water plant then the water fund will reimburse the emergency fund. S. Holovacs asked why the total fund amount is $10,000 in the appropriation ordinance. W. Hamilton said that they are doing two appropriations by authorizing the $5,000 transfer out of the general fund to the emergency fund. The second appropriation is to authorize Dan Squires to spend out of the emergency fund which is the second $5,000.
No further discussion came before the committee and D. Roth adjourned the meeting.
Gwen Fisher, Certified Municipal Clerk
Note: Unofficial meeting minutes. Changes may be pending. Minutes are verbatim.
5/2/08
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